How Joe Rogan Created and Destroyed the Long-Form Podcast
What you need to know about Gish gallop
Once again, as usual over the last two years of the COVID pandemic, Joe Rogan has been making headlines again. Most recently, it’s from his episode with Dr. Robert Malone, who is another highly credentialed doctor spreading vaccine hesitancy through misinformation, misinterpretation of data, and using bad research. Now, you have over 270 medical professionals sending an open letter to Joe Rogan and Spotify to stop this nonsense as Rogan, Malone, Bret Weinstein and others gear up for a rally against vaccine mandates. But today, I want to focus on the good Joe Rogan did by popularizing long-form podcasts while also burning it to the ground through irresponsible behavior.
The History of the Joe Rogan Experience
Recently, I’ve been talking with one of my best friends a lot about the “good ol’ days” of Joe Rogan. Going back to before I got sober in 2012, my friend was also my roommate for years and loved Joe Rogan’s podcast and the community around him. Back then, podcasts weren’t popular, but Joe Rogan saw their potential. In those days, he’d just bullshit with other comedians and have some MMA guys on when UFC was just really gaining popularity. And along with the podcast, he had his own forum website called The Rogan Boards that may have even pre-dated the podcast.
While I didn’t really listen to Rogan or participate in the forums, my friend absolutely loved it and would always talk to me about it. During that time, Joe Rogan had built a community of random people on the internet who would have nuanced conversations and share their differing opinions. It was really interesting to hear about the Rogan Boards from my friend. Sure, there were your trolls or edgelords who would do their rounds, but for the most part, the forums seemed like they were trying to foster conversation from people with different beliefs and backgrounds.
I don’t even know where to begin to find the old analytics, but I’d guess that at best, Joe Rogan was getting thousands of podcast listens and hundreds or thousands of people on his forum. Today, he’s the #1 podcast, and there’s a good reason for how he got there.
Yes, it’s true that Joe Rogan gained a lot of popularity for discussing fringe science and conspiracies while also raving about the benefits of various mind-altering substances. But in my opinion, Joe Rogan blew up because he was doing a couple things that nobody was doing at the time: he was willing to talk to someone for hours, and he was willing to talk to controversial people. This is exactly what the world needed at the time Joe Rogan blew up.
The culture wars and saftyism really started rearing their ugly heads just over a decade ago. People started viewing words as harm, college kids went from being the biggest defenders of free speech to rioting if a speaker they didn’t like was coming to their campus. While this was going on, mainstream media became more polarized, and it was extremely rare to have someone from a different political party on a show unless it was for the host to try and dunk on the guest and further fuel the political divide.
Regardless of your or my opinion of Joe Rogan, there’s no denying he’s a curious guy. His curiosity leads him to pseudoscience and conspiracy theories, but he’s curious and enjoys talking with people and learning about them. So, while mainstream media refused to even platform or talk to some people like Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Sam Harris, or others who were (and some still are) extremely controversial, Joe Rogan would invite them on to have conversations. Back in episode #702, Joe Rogan even had Milo Yiannopolis on.
So, the fact that Joe Rogan was willing to talk to people that news outlets or publications saw as nuclear really made him stand out as something different. And back then, he really did seem to be the center-left type guy who was willing to push back on guests and disagree with them. That’s changed, but we’ll discuss that later.
Aside from having these guests on, Joe Rogan would talk to these people for two or three hours, and that was completely mind-blowing at the time. But what we have to acknowledge is how necessary it was and still is.
I’m a firm believer in reading books by people you disagree with. The reason is that in a world of social media, sound bites, and out-of-context quotes, a book is the best way to get someone’s full range of views through nuance. I can’t tell you how many times people have told me what to think about someone, but then I read their book and realize how much more nuanced their opinions are. Sometimes I still disagree with them, and other times, I actually realize they say a lot that I do agree with. But giving someone the space for nuance is of the utmost importance because it’s rare that anyone or any topic is black and white.
By having a multi-hour conversation with people, Joe Rogan was doing what made The Rogan Boards so popular. He was providing people the space to be nuanced and have differing opinions. Meanwhile, everywhere else we looked, people weren’t even allowed to speak on campuses or other various platforms. So, while we all saw the world going completely insane, it seemed like Joe Rogan was bringing back the humanization of people and showing the importance of conversation.
Unfortunately, what made his podcast become number one has really highlighted how long-form podcasts can be such a terrible thing. There are some major unintended consequences that I don’t think any of us saw coming, and it’s really showing with Joe Rogan’s personal biases and guests throughout the pandemic.
The Art of Gish Gallop
First, we need to switch gears and discuss why Donald Trump was so successful at being the worst.
I despise Trump, but you have to respect the game. Many books I’ve read that discuss the terrors of misinformation spreading on social media even have to give credit to Trump as this expert in what he does. Even before his presidency, Trump was able to spread lies, misinformation, and conspiracies better than anyone. Not only that, but he managed to see all the chinks in the armor of social media and use it to his advantage, and he also did it every time a camera was on him.
Throughout his presidency, this guy could talk for a 60-90 seconds, and within that time, he’d spew so many pieces of misinformation that it’d take anyone hours to debunk them all. Some call this the “firehose technique”, but the proper term is “gish gallop”.
“The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a debater attempts to overwhelm an opponent by excessive number of arguments, without regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments.”
This is such a devious rhetorical technique on multiple levels. The first, as we discussed, is the fact that it takes forever to debunk everything the person is saying. Who on earth is going to spend their time going through to fact-check everything someone like this says? In today’s world, people are lazier than ever and hate doing their own research, so they take things at face value, and we default to believing people. And even when someone takes the time to debunk everything, they’ll only get a fraction of the people who heard the lies to actually care.
What doesn’t get discussed about Gish gallop is that anyone debunking it sounds like a hater or a conspiracy theorist. I realized this when I got canceled in 2019. When there’s so much misinformation, you almost look worse when you try to debunk it all. I don’t know if there have been any psychological studies behind this, but there’s something about the human psyche where we see someone debunking multiple points, and they somehow look worse by doing it.
The Downfall of Long-Form Podcasts
Now, back to Joe Rogan’s podcast, you may be able to see where I’m going with this. When Joe Rogan brings on a doctor spewing bad science for three hours, it’s even worse. If Donald Trump can spew that much misinformation in 60-90 seconds, think about what happens in three hours.
I first became aware of this when Joe Rogan had Dr. Peter McCullough on his podcast. I discussed this a little in my previous piece The Frightening Knowledge Illusion of Podcasts, but that was more about the host. Now, I want to focus more on the audiences.
Although I’m fully vaxxed (just got my booster yesterday), I’ve been skeptical lately. When McCullough came on, I started noticing how mainstream media was listening to the Pfizer CEO like he’s a leading medical researcher, the government is still fear-mongering COVID despite the evidence that things are getting better, and issues with the CDC and Fauci. So, I wanted to hear what McCullough had to say, and much like why I read books from people I disagree with, I wanted to listen to all three hours for the nuanced conversation.
Fortunately, I’m a major skeptic. I don’t know if it’s my personal trust issues or what, but rather than defaulting to trust, I default to thinking people are full of shit. If you’re not like me, the episode with McCullough may have fooled you.
When I tuned into the episode with McCullough, he almost had me sold. This guy flaunted all of his credentials and publications to show credibility, but he seemingly had the research to back his anti-vax views. During the interview, Peter McCullough had his laptop with him, and for three hours, he was citing study after study after study about all of the dangers of the vaccines.
As I’m listening to this guy, I’m thinking, “Holy shit. Even though he comes off conspiratorial, how does he have so many studies he’s able to reference?” Not only that, but he’s naming the different organizations who did these studies as well.
But, like I said, my default is skepticism.
While I was listening to that episode, and after I finished it, I was actively tweeting out asking if anyone had links to people debunking what McCullough had to say.
Quick side note. If you’re like me and want to get to the truth, here’s what I do. First, realize you’re not that smart. I’m not a doctor, so I need people in McCullough’s realm to tell me the best arguments for or against what he had to say. But second, you have to realize that knowledge isn’t created by one person; it comes from a community. So, that’s why we need to get a variety of opinions.
Well, within days of that episode with McCullough coming out, all of the debunking started to happen. For three hours, McCoullough was mainly citing debunked research, retracted research, and research from extremely sketchy organizations. But how could any of us know that? By giving this guy three hours to do some Gish galloping, it sounds like he knows what he’s talking about. Fortunately, I’m a nerd who will spend another three hours learning about why he’s wrong, but most people won’t.
And yes, this is pretty much the same thing with Dr. Robert Malone.
So, although Joe Rogan showed us why long-form podcasts are so important, these are also a cesspool for spreading misinformation and bad science. What amplifies this fact is that Joe Rogan is a victim of his own confirmation bias.
I’ve heard the complaint that people criticizing Joe Rogan aren’t listening to the episodes, and I definitely think everyone needs to listen before criticizing. If nothing else, do it so you can see Joe Rogan’s obvious biases that he’s completely oblivious to.
The smoking gun to Joe Rogan’s biases is the under-utilization of his helper Young Jamie.
For years, Jamie has been Rogan’s right-hand man to not only bring up articles and weird videos Rogan wants to show people, but he helps with fact-checking. If Joe Rogan thinks the guest might be misinformed or has counter-evidence, he asks Jamie to pull something up so they can do realtime fact-checking. If you check out episodes Rogan does with people who share his opinions, it’s like Jamie isn’t there.
Why fact check anyone if they’re telling you exactly what you want to hear?
Joe Rogan is giving people promoting anti-vax rhetoric and/or vaccine hesitency hours to share misinformation and conspiracy theories without even questioning them. This is how he’s managed to turn the thing he popularized into a terrible vehicle for spreading misinformation to his audience of millions.
What I’ll end with is something that I think about a lot because it happened to me.
When you create content, you go from a nobody to a somebody without even realizing it. At one point, you’re just someone making a podcast or YouTube videos, and you have a small audience. You grow a little bit and a little bit more, but still, nobody is really talking about you. The next thing you know, everyone is talking about you, and you went from not having any real responsibility to having everyone tell you that you need to be more responsible with what you say and who you platform.
It’s like the frog in the boiling water. Your growth happens gradually without even realizing it.
So, the ethical question is this: when does a person cross over to a place where they need to accept the responsibility that comes with their platform?
It’s a tricky question, but with Joe Rogan, I think it’s a little more cut and dry. Joe Rogan is #1, and he’s been #1 for a long time. Although he’s the richest podcaster on Earth, he still tries to neglect responsibility by saying, “People shouldn’t listen to me. I’m just an idiot comedian and MMA guy with a podcast.” Unfortunately, that’s now how our brains work. With audience size and status comes trust, and with trust comes responsibility. Therefore, Joe has the responsibility to, if nothing else, start fact-checking his guests and reigning in his confirmation bias.
I’m currently writing a book about how we’re manipulated by the news, social media, technology, advertisers, and each other. It dives into the psychological history of manipulation, our biases, tribalism, and more.
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